Home About Network of subjects Linked subjects heatmap Book indices included Search by subject Search by reference Browse subjects Browse texts

Tiresias: The Ancient Mediterranean Religions Source Database



11242
Xenophon, Memoirs, 4.5.9


εἰκότως γάρ, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες. ἐκεῖνο δέ, ὦ Εὐθύδημε, ἤδη πώποτε ἐνεθυμήθης; ποῖον; ἔφη. ὅτι καὶ ἐπὶ τὰ ἡδέα, ἐφʼ ἅπερ μόνα δοκεῖ ἡ ἀκρασία τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἄγειν, αὐτὴ μὲν οὐ δύναται ἄγειν, ἡ δʼ ἐγκράτεια πάντων μάλιστα ἥδεσθαι ποιεῖ. πῶς; ἔφη. ἡ μὲν ἀκρασία οὐκ ἐῶσα καρτερεῖν οὔτε λιμὸν οὔτε δίψος οὔτε ἀφροδισίων ἐπιθυμίαν οὔτε ἀγρυπνίαν, διʼ ὧν μόνων ἔστιν ἡδέως μὲν φαγεῖν τε καὶ πιεῖν καὶ ἀφροδισιάσαι, ἡδέως δʼ ἀναπαύσασθαί τε καὶ κοιμηθῆναι, περιμείναντας καὶ ἀνασχομένους, ἕως ἂν ταῦτα ὡς ἔνι ἥδιστα γένηται, κωλύει τοῖς ἀναγκαιοτάτοις τε καὶ συνεχεστάτοις ἀξιολόγως ἥδεσθαι· ἡ δʼ ἐγκράτεια μόνη ποιοῦσα καρτερεῖν τὰ εἰρημένα μόνη καὶ ἥδεσθαι ποιεῖ ἀξίως μνήμης ἐπὶ τοῖς εἰρημένοις. παντάπασιν, ἔφη, ἀληθῆ λέγεις.Has it ever occurred to you, Euthydemus — ? What? That though pleasure is the one and only goal to which incontinence is thought to lead men, she herself cannot bring them to it, whereas nothing produces pleasure so surely as self-control? How so? Incontinence will not let them endure hunger or thirst or desire or lack of sleep, which are the sole causes of pleasure in eating and drinking and sexual indulgence, and in resting and sleeping, after a time of waiting and resistance until the moment comes when these will give the greatest possible satisfaction; and thus she prevents them from experiencing any pleasure worthy to be mentioned in the most elementary and recurrent forms of enjoyment. But self-control alone causes them to endure the sufferings I have named, and therefore she alone causes them to experience any pleasure worth mentioning in such enjoyments. What you say is entirely true.


εἰκότως γάρ, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες. ἐκεῖνο δέ, ὦ Εὐθύδημε, ἤδη πώποτε ἐνεθυμήθης; ποῖον; ἔφη. ὅτι καὶ ἐπὶ τὰ ἡδέα, ἐφʼ ἅπερ μόνα δοκεῖ ἡ ἀκρασία τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἄγειν, αὐτὴ μὲν οὐ δύναται ἄγειν, ἡ δʼ ἐγκράτεια πάντων μάλιστα ἥδεσθαι ποιεῖ. πῶς; ἔφη. ἡ μὲν ἀκρασία οὐκ ἐῶσα καρτερεῖν οὔτε λιμὸν οὔτε δίψος οὔτε ἀφροδισίων ἐπιθυμίαν οὔτε ἀγρυπνίαν, διʼ ὧν μόνων ἔστιν ἡδέως μὲν φαγεῖν τε καὶ πιεῖν καὶ ἀφροδισιάσαι, ἡδέως δʼ ἀναπαύσασθαί τε καὶ κοιμηθῆναι, περιμείναντας καὶ ἀνασχομένους, ἕως ἂν ταῦτα ὡς ἔνι ἥδιστα γένηται, κωλύει τοῖς ἀναγκαιοτάτοις τε καὶ συνεχεστάτοις ἀξιολόγως ἥδεσθαι· ἡ δʼ ἐγκράτεια μόνη ποιοῦσα καρτερεῖν τὰ εἰρημένα μόνη καὶ ἥδεσθαι ποιεῖ ἀξίως μνήμης ἐπὶ τοῖς εἰρημένοις. παντάπασιν, ἔφη, ἀληθῆ λέγεις.Has it ever occurred to you, Euthydemus — ?" "What?" "That though pleasure is the one and only goal to which incontinence is thought to lead men, she herself cannot bring them to it, whereas nothing produces pleasure so surely as self-control?" "How so?" "Incontinence will not let them endure hunger or thirst or desire or lack of sleep, which are the sole causes of pleasure in eating and drinking and sexual indulgence, and in resting and sleeping, after a time of waiting and resistance until the moment comes when these will give the greatest possible satisfaction; and thus she prevents them from experiencing any pleasure worthy to be mentioned in the most elementary and recurrent forms of enjoyment. But self-control alone causes them to endure the sufferings I have named, and therefore she alone causes them to experience any pleasure worth mentioning in such enjoyments." "What you say is entirely true.


Intertexts (texts cited often on the same page as the searched text):

5 results
1. Euripides, Bacchae, 70 (5th cent. BCE - 5th cent. BCE)

70. ἅπας ἐξοσιούσθω· 70. peaking propitious things. For I will celebrate Dionysus with hymns according to eternal custom. Choru
2. Plato, Meno, None (5th cent. BCE - 4th cent. BCE)

98a. and effect all that is good; but they do not care to stay for long, and run away out of the human soul, and thus are of no great value until one makes them fast with causal reasoning. And this process, friend Meno, is recollection, as in our previous talk we have agreed. But when once they are fastened, in the first place they turn into knowledge, and in the second, are abiding. And this is why knowledge is more prized than right opinion: the one transcends the other by its trammels. Men. Upon my word, Socrates, it seems to be very much as you say.
3. Xenophon, Memoirs, 1.2.41-1.2.46, 3.9.4-3.9.5, 3.14.2, 4.4.19-4.4.23, 4.4.25, 4.5.11 (5th cent. BCE - 4th cent. BCE)

1.2.41. Tell me, Pericles, he said, can you teach me what a law is? Certainly, he replied. Then pray teach me. For whenever I hear men praised for keeping the laws, it occurs to me that no one can really deserve that praise who does not know what a law is. 1.2.42. Well, Alcibiades, there is no great difficulty about what you desire. You wish to know what a law is. Laws are all the rules approved and enacted by the majority in assembly, whereby they declare what ought and what ought not to be done. Do they suppose it is right to do good or evil? Good, of course, young man, — not evil. 1.2.43. But if, as happens under an oligarchy, not the majority, but a minority meet and enact rules of conduct, what are these? Whatsoever the sovereign power in the State, after deliberation, enacts and directs to be done is known as a law. If, then, a despot, being the sovereign power, enacts what the citizens are to do, are his orders also a law? Yes, whatever a despot as ruler enacts is also known as a law. 1.2.44. But force, the negation of law, what is that, Pericles? Is it not the action of the stronger when he constrains the weaker to do whatever he chooses, not by persuasion, but by force? That is my opinion. Then whatever a despot by enactment constrains the citizens to do without persuasion, is the negation of law? I think so: and I withdraw my answer that whatever a despot enacts without persuasion is a law. 1.2.45. And when the minority passes enactments, not by persuading the majority, but through using its power, are we to call that force or not? Everything, I think, that men constrain others to do without persuasion, whether by enactment or not, is not law, but force. It follows then, that whatever the assembled majority, through using its power over the owners of property, enacts without persuasion is not law, but force? 1.2.46. Alcibiades, said Pericles, at your age, I may tell you, we, too, were very clever at this sort of thing. For the puzzles we thought about and exercised our wits on were just such as you seem to think about now. Ah, Pericles, cried Alcibiades, if only I had known you intimately when you were at your cleverest in these things! 3.9.4. Between Wisdom and Prudence he drew no distinction; but if a man knows and practises what is beautiful and good, knows and avoids what is base, The Greek text is corrupt, but the sense is clear. that man he judged to be both wise and prudent. When asked further whether he thought that those who know what they ought to do and yet do the opposite are at once wise and vicious, he answered: No; not so much that, as both unwise and vicious. For I think that all men have a choice between various courses, and choose and follow the one which they think conduces most to their advantage. Therefore I hold that those who follow the wrong course are neither wise nor prudent. 3.9.5. He said that Justice and every other form of Virtue is Wisdom. For just actions and all forms of virtuous activity are beautiful and good. He who knows the beautiful and good will never choose anything else, he who is ignorant of them cannot do them, and even if he tries, will fail. Hence the wise do what is beautiful and good, the unwise cannot and fail if they try. Therefore since just actions and all other forms of beautiful and good activity are virtuous actions, it is clear that Justice and every other form of Virtue is Wisdom. 3.14.2. He observed on one occasion that one of the company at dinner had ceased to take bread, and ate the meat by itself. Now the talk was of names and the actions to which they are properly applied. Can we say, my friends, said Socrates, what is the nature of the action for which a man is called greedy? For all, I presume, eat meat with their bread when they get the chance: but I don’t think there is so far any reason for calling them greedy? No, certainly not, said one of the company. 4.4.19. Do you know what is meant by unwritten laws, Hippias? Yes, those that are uniformly observed in every country. Could you say that men made them? Nay, how could that be, seeing that they cannot all meet together and do not speak the same language? Then by whom have these laws been made, do you suppose? I think that the gods made these laws for men. For among all men the first law is to fear the gods. 4.4.20. Is not the duty of honouring parents another universal law? Yes, that is another. And that parents shall not have sexual intercourse with their children nor children with their parents? Cyropaedia V. i. 10. No, I don’t think that is a law of God. Why so? Because I notice that some transgress it. 4.4.21. Yes, and they do many other things contrary to the laws. But surely the transgressors of the laws ordained by the gods pay a penalty that a man can in no wise escape, as some, when they transgress the laws ordained by man, escape punishment, either by concealment or by violence. 4.4.22. And pray what sort of penalty is it, Socrates, that may not be avoided by parents and children who have intercourse with one another? The greatest, of course. For what greater penalty can men incur when they beget children than begetting them badly? 4.4.23. How do they beget children badly then, if, as may well happen, the fathers are good men and the mothers good women? Surely because it is not enough that the two parents should be good. They must also be in full bodily vigour: unless you suppose that those who are in full vigour are no more efficient as parents than those who have not yet reached that condition or have passed it. of course that is unlikely. Which are the better then? Those who are in full vigour, clearly. Consequently those who are not in full vigour are not competent to become parents? It is improbable, of course. In that case then, they ought not to have children? Certainly not. Therefore those who produce children in such circumstances produce them wrongly? I think so. Who then will be bad fathers and mothers, if not they? I agree with you there too. 4.4.25. Then, Hippias, do you think that the gods ordain what is just or what is otherwise? Not what is otherwise — of course not; for if a god ordains not that which is just, surely no other legislator can do so. Consequently, Hippias, the gods too accept the identification of just and lawful. By such words and actions he encouraged Justice in those who resorted to his company. 4.5.11. Socrates, said Euthydemus, I think you mean that he who is at the mercy of the bodily pleasures has no concern whatever with virtue in any form. Yes, Euthydemus; for how can an incontinent man be any better than the dullest beast? How can he who fails to consider the things that matter most, and strives by every means to do the things that are most pleasant, be better than the stupidest of creatures? No, only the self-controlled have power to consider the things that matter most, and, sorting them out after their kind, by word and deed alike to prefer the good and reject the evil.
4. Menander, Samia, 274 (4th cent. BCE - 3rd cent. BCE)

5. Ctesias, Fragments, 1



Subjects of this text:

subject book bibliographic info
antisthenes, and definition Wolfsdorf, Early Greek Ethics (2020) 188
antisthenes, on walls of reasoning Wolfsdorf, Early Greek Ethics (2020) 188
aristotle, as source for socrates Wolfsdorf, Early Greek Ethics (2020) 188
assyrians Gorman, Gorman, Corrupting Luxury in Ancient Greek Literature (2014) 279
athenaeus (author), fragmentary writers and Gorman, Gorman, Corrupting Luxury in Ancient Greek Literature (2014) 279
athenaeus (author), paraphrases original sources Gorman, Gorman, Corrupting Luxury in Ancient Greek Literature (2014) 279
athenaeus (author) Gorman, Gorman, Corrupting Luxury in Ancient Greek Literature (2014) 279
ctesias of cnidus Gorman, Gorman, Corrupting Luxury in Ancient Greek Literature (2014) 279
decadence, processes of Gorman, Gorman, Corrupting Luxury in Ancient Greek Literature (2014) 279
definitional inquiry Wolfsdorf, Early Greek Ethics (2020) 188
effeminacy Gorman, Gorman, Corrupting Luxury in Ancient Greek Literature (2014) 279
elenchos Wolfsdorf, Early Greek Ethics (2020) 188
epistēmē Wolfsdorf, Early Greek Ethics (2020) 188
historiography, hellenistic' Gorman, Gorman, Corrupting Luxury in Ancient Greek Literature (2014) 279
ninyas (king of assyria) Gorman, Gorman, Corrupting Luxury in Ancient Greek Literature (2014) 279
persians Gorman, Gorman, Corrupting Luxury in Ancient Greek Literature (2014) 279
sardanapalus (king of assyria) Gorman, Gorman, Corrupting Luxury in Ancient Greek Literature (2014) 279
socrates, method Wolfsdorf, Early Greek Ethics (2020) 188
theophrastus Gorman, Gorman, Corrupting Luxury in Ancient Greek Literature (2014) 279