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Tiresias: The Ancient Mediterranean Religions Source Database



9645
Polybius, Histories, 6.51-6.52


nan The constitution of Carthage seems to me to have been originally well contrived as regards its most distinctive points. <, For there were kings, and the house of Elders was an aristocratical force, and the people were supreme in matters proper to them, the entire frame of the state much resembling that of Rome and Sparta. <, But at the time when they entered on the Hannibalic War, the Carthaginian constitution had degenerated, and that of Rome was better. <, For as every body or state or action has its natural periods first of growth, then of prime, and finally of decay, and as everything in them is at its best when they are in their prime, it was for this reason that the difference between the two states manifested itself at this time. <, For by as much as the power and prosperity of Carthage had been earlier than that of Rome, by so much had Carthage already begun to decline; while Rome was exactly at her prime, as far as at least as her system of government was concerned. <, Consequently the multitude at Carthage had already acquired the chief voice in deliberations; while at Rome the senate still retained this; <, and hence, as in one case the masses deliberated and in the other the most eminent men, the Roman decisions on public affairs were superior, <, so that although they met with complete disaster, they were finally by the wisdom of their counsels victorious over the Carthaginians in the war. <


nan1.  The constitution of Carthage seems to me to have been originally well contrived as regards its most distinctive points.,2.  For there were kings, and the house of Elders was an aristocratical force, and the people were supreme in matters proper to them, the entire frame of the state much resembling that of Rome and Sparta.,3.  But at the time when they entered on the Hannibalic War, the Carthaginian constitution had degenerated, and that of Rome was better.,4.  For as every body or state or action has its natural periods first of growth, then of prime, and finally of decay, and as everything in them is at its best when they are in their prime, it was for this reason that the difference between the two states manifested itself at this time.,5.  For by as much as the power and prosperity of Carthage had been earlier than that of Rome, by so much had Carthage already begun to decline; while Rome was exactly at her prime, as far as at least as her system of government was concerned.,6.  Consequently the multitude at Carthage had already acquired the chief voice in deliberations; while at Rome the senate still retained this;,7.  and hence, as in one case the masses deliberated and in the other the most eminent men, the Roman decisions on public affairs were superior,,8.  so that although they met with complete disaster, they were finally by the wisdom of their counsels victorious over the Carthaginians in the war.


nan But to pass to differences of detail, such as, to begin with, the conduct of war, the Carthaginians naturally are superior at sea both in efficiency and equipment, because seamanship has long been their national craft, and they busy themselves with the sea more than any other people; <, but as regards military service on land the Romans are much more efficient. <, They indeed devote their whole energies to this matter, whereas the Carthaginians entirely neglect their infantry, though they do pay some slight attention to their cavalry. <, The reason of this is that the troops they employ are foreign and mercenary, whereas those of the Romans are natives of the soil and citizens. <, So that in this respect also we must pronounce the political system of Rome to be superior to that of Carthage, the Carthaginians continuing to depend for the maintenance of their freedom on the courage of a mercenary force but the Romans on their own valour and on the aid of their allies. <, Consequently even if they happen to be worsted at the outset, the Romans redeem defeat by final success, while it is the contrary with the Carthaginians. <, For the Romans, fighting as they are for their country and their children, never can abate their fury but continue to throw their whole hearts into the struggle until they get the better of their enemies. <, It follows that though the Romans are, as I said, much less skilled in naval matters, they are on the whole success­ful at sea owing to the gallantry of their men; <, for although skill in seamanship is of no small importance in naval battles, it is chiefly the courage of the marines that turns the scale in favour of victory. <, Now not only do Italians in general naturally excel Phoenicians and Africans in bodily strength and personal courage, but by their institutions also they do much to foster a spirit of bravery in the young men. <, A single instance will suffice to indicate the pains taken by the state to turn out men who will be ready to endure everything in order to gain a reputation in their country for valour. <


nan1.  But to pass to differences of detail, such as, to begin with, the conduct of war, the Carthaginians naturally are superior at sea both in efficiency and equipment, because seamanship has long been their national craft, and they busy themselves with the sea more than any other people;,2.  but as regards military service on land the Romans are much more efficient.,3.  They indeed devote their whole energies to this matter, whereas the Carthaginians entirely neglect their infantry, though they do pay some slight attention to their cavalry.,4.  The reason of this is that the troops they employ are foreign and mercenary, whereas those of the Romans are natives of the soil and citizens.,5.  So that in this respect also we must pronounce the political system of Rome to be superior to that of Carthage, the Carthaginians continuing to depend for the maintenance of their freedom on the courage of a mercenary force but the Romans on their own valour and on the aid of their allies.,6.  Consequently even if they happen to be worsted at the outset, the Romans redeem defeat by final success, while it is the contrary with the Carthaginians.,7.  For the Romans, fighting as they are for their country and their children, never can abate their fury but continue to throw their whole hearts into the struggle until they get the better of their enemies.,8.  It follows that though the Romans are, as I said, much less skilled in naval matters, they are on the whole success­ful at sea owing to the gallantry of their men;,9.  for although skill in seamanship is of no small importance in naval battles, it is chiefly the courage of the marines that turns the scale in favour of victory.,10.  Now not only do Italians in general naturally excel Phoenicians and Africans in bodily strength and personal courage, but by their institutions also they do much to foster a spirit of bravery in the young men.,11.  A single instance will suffice to indicate the pains taken by the state to turn out men who will be ready to endure everything in order to gain a reputation in their country for valour.


Intertexts (texts cited often on the same page as the searched text):

2 results
1. Aristotle, Politics, None (4th cent. BCE - 4th cent. BCE)

2. Polybius, Histories, 1.31.8, 1.62.1, 1.62.4-1.62.6, 1.63.9, 3.47.6-3.47.9, 6.35-6.38, 6.37.1-6.37.4, 6.43.1, 6.47.9, 6.51.1-6.51.2, 6.52, 6.56, 6.56.1-6.56.5, 6.56.7, 10.2.5-10.2.13, 10.9.2-10.9.3, 15.33.10, 18.28.4-18.28.5 (2nd cent. BCE - 2nd cent. BCE)

3.47.6.  Some of the writers who have described this passage of the Alps, from the wish to impress their readers by the marvels they recount of these mountains, are betrayed into two vices ever most alien to true history; for they are compelled to make both false statements and statements which contradict each other. 3.47.7.  While on the one hand introducing Hannibal as a commander of unequalled courage and foresight, they incontestably represent him to us as entirely wanting in prudence 3.47.8.  and again, being unable to bring their series of falsehoods to any close or issue they introduce gods and the sons of gods into the sober history of the facts. 3.47.9.  By representing the Alps as being so steep and rugged that not only horses and troops accompanied by elephants, but even active men on foot would have difficult in passing, and at the same time picturing to us the desolation of the country as being such, that unless some god or hero had met Hannibal and showed him the way, his whole army would have gone astray and perished utterly, they unquestionably fall into both the above vices. 6.37. 1.  A court-martial composed of all the tribunes at once meets to try him, and if he is found guilty he is punished by the bastinado ( fustuarium).,2.  This is inflicted as follows: The tribune takes a cudgel and just touches the condemned man with it,,3.  after which all in the camp beat or stone him, in most cases dispatching him in the camp itself.,4.  But even those who manage to escape are not saved thereby: impossible! for they are not allowed to return to their homes, and none of the family would dare to receive such a man in his house. So that those who have of course fallen into this misfortune are utterly ruined.,5.  The same punishment is inflicted on the optio and on the praefect of the squadron, if they do not give the proper orders at the right time to the patrols and the praefect of the next squadron.,6.  Thus, owing to the extreme severity and inevitableness of the penalty, the night watches of the Roman army are most scrupulously kept.,7.  While the soldiers are subject to the tribune, the latter are subject to the consuls.,8.  A tribune, and in the case of the allies a praefect, has the right of inflicting fines, of demanding sureties, and of punishing by flogging.,9.  The bastinado is also inflicted on those who steal anything from the camp; on those who give false evidence; on young men who have abused their persons; and finally on anyone who has been punished thrice for the same fault.,10.  Those are the offences which are punished as crimes, the following being treated as unmanly acts and disgraceful in a soldier — when a man boasts falsely to the tribune of his valour in the field in order to gain distinction;,11.  when any men who have been placed in a covering force leave the station assigned to them from fear; likewise when anyone throws away from fear any of his arms in the actual battle.,12.  Therefore the men in covering forces often face certain death, refusing to leave their ranks even when vastly outnumbered, owing to dread of the punishment they would meet with;,13.  and again in the battle men who have lost a shield or sword or any other arm often throw themselves into the midst of the enemy, hoping either to recover the lost object or to escape by death from inevitable disgrace and the taunts of their relations. 6.37.1.  A court-martial composed of all the tribunes at once meets to try him, and if he is found guilty he is punished by the bastinado ( fustuarium). 6.37.2.  This is inflicted as follows: The tribune takes a cudgel and just touches the condemned man with it 6.37.3.  after which all in the camp beat or stone him, in most cases dispatching him in the camp itself. 6.37.4.  But even those who manage to escape are not saved thereby: impossible! for they are not allowed to return to their homes, and none of the family would dare to receive such a man in his house. So that those who have of course fallen into this misfortune are utterly ruined. 6.38. 1.  If the same thing ever happens to large bodies, and if entire maniples desert their posts when exceedingly hard pressed, the officers refrain from inflicting the bastinado or the death penalty on all, but find a solution of the difficulty which is both salutary and terror-striking.,2.  The tribune assembles the legion, and brings up those guilty of leaving the ranks, reproaches them sharply, and finally chooses by lots sometimes five, sometimes eight, sometimes twenty of the offenders, so adjusting the number thus chosen that they form as near as possible the tenth part of those guilty of cowardice.,3.  Those on whom the lot falls are bastinadoed mercilessly in the manner above described; the rest receive rations of barley instead of wheat and are ordered to encamp outside the camp on an unprotected spot.,4.  As therefore the danger and dread of drawing the fatal lot affects all equally, as it is uncertain on whom it will fall; and as the public disgrace of receiving barley rations falls on all alike, this practice is that best calculated both to inspire fear and to correct the mischief. 6.43.1.  One may say that nearly all authors have handed down to us the reputation for excellence enjoyed by the constitutions of Sparta, Crete, Mantinea, and Carthage. Some make mention also of those of Athens and Thebes. 6.47.9.  Up to the present it would be just the same thing to discuss it with a view to comparison with the constitutions of Sparta, Rome, and Carthage, as to take some statue and compare it with living and breathing men. 6.51.1.  The constitution of Carthage seems to me to have been originally well contrived as regards its most distinctive points. 6.51.2.  For there were kings, and the house of Elders was an aristocratical force, and the people were supreme in matters proper to them, the entire frame of the state much resembling that of Rome and Sparta. 6.52. 1.  But to pass to differences of detail, such as, to begin with, the conduct of war, the Carthaginians naturally are superior at sea both in efficiency and equipment, because seamanship has long been their national craft, and they busy themselves with the sea more than any other people;,2.  but as regards military service on land the Romans are much more efficient.,3.  They indeed devote their whole energies to this matter, whereas the Carthaginians entirely neglect their infantry, though they do pay some slight attention to their cavalry.,4.  The reason of this is that the troops they employ are foreign and mercenary, whereas those of the Romans are natives of the soil and citizens.,5.  So that in this respect also we must pronounce the political system of Rome to be superior to that of Carthage, the Carthaginians continuing to depend for the maintece of their freedom on the courage of a mercenary force but the Romans on their own valour and on the aid of their allies.,6.  Consequently even if they happen to be worsted at the outset, the Romans redeem defeat by final success, while it is the contrary with the Carthaginians.,7.  For the Romans, fighting as they are for their country and their children, never can abate their fury but continue to throw their whole hearts into the struggle until they get the better of their enemies.,8.  It follows that though the Romans are, as I said, much less skilled in naval matters, they are on the whole success­ful at sea owing to the gallantry of their men;,9.  for although skill in seamanship is of no small importance in naval battles, it is chiefly the courage of the marines that turns the scale in favour of victory.,10.  Now not only do Italians in general naturally excel Phoenicians and Africans in bodily strength and personal courage, but by their institutions also they do much to foster a spirit of bravery in the young men.,11.  A single instance will suffice to indicate the pains taken by the state to turn out men who will be ready to endure everything in order to gain a reputation in their country for valour. 6.56. 1.  Again, the laws and customs relating to the acquisition of wealth are better in Rome than at Carthage.,2.  At Carthage nothing which results in profit is regarded as disgraceful; at Rome nothing is considered more so than to accept bribes and seek gain from improper channels.,3.  For no less strong than their approval of money-making is their condemnation of unscrupulous gain from forbidden sources.,4.  A proof of this is that at Carthage candidates for office practise open bribery, whereas at Rome death is the penalty for it.,5.  Therefore as the rewards offered to merit are the opposite in the two cases, it is natural that the steps taken to gain them should also be dissimilar.,6.  But the quality in which the Roman commonwealth is most distinctly superior is in my opinion the nature of their religious convictions.,7.  I believe that it is the very thing which among other peoples is an object of reproach, I mean superstition, which maintains the cohesion of the Roman State.,8.  These matters are clothed in such pomp and introduced to such an extent into their public and private life that nothing could exceed it, a fact which will surprise many.,9.  My own opinion at least is that they have adopted this course for the sake of the common people.,10.  It is a course which perhaps would not have been necessary had it been possible to form a state composed of wise men,,11.  but as every multitude is fickle, full of lawless desires, unreasoned passion, and violent anger, the multitude must be held in by invisible terrors and suchlike pageantry.,12.  For this reason I think, not that the ancients acted rashly and at haphazard in introducing among the people notions concerning the gods and beliefs in the terrors of hell, but that the moderns are most rash and foolish in banishing such beliefs.,13.  The consequence is that among the Greeks, apart from other things, members of the government, if they are entrusted with no more than a talent, though they have ten copyists and as many seals and twice as many witnesses, cannot keep their faith;,14.  whereas among the Romans those who as magistrates and legates are dealing with large sums of money maintain correct conduct just because they have pledged their faith by oath.,15.  Whereas elsewhere it is a rare thing to find a man who keeps his hands off public money, and whose record is clean in this respect, among the Romans one rarely comes across a man who has been detected in such conduct. . . . VIII. Conclusion of the Treatise on the Roman Republic 6.56.1.  Again, the laws and customs relating to the acquisition of wealth are better in Rome than at Carthage. 6.56.2.  At Carthage nothing which results in profit is regarded as disgraceful; at Rome nothing is considered more so than to accept bribes and seek gain from improper channels. 6.56.3.  For no less strong than their approval of money-making is their condemnation of unscrupulous gain from forbidden sources. 6.56.4.  A proof of this is that at Carthage candidates for office practise open bribery, whereas at Rome death is the penalty for it. 6.56.5.  Therefore as the rewards offered to merit are the opposite in the two cases, it is natural that the steps taken to gain them should also be dissimilar. 6.56.7.  I believe that it is the very thing which among other peoples is an object of reproach, I mean superstition, which maintains the cohesion of the Roman State. 10.2.6.  such men being, in their opinion, more divine and more worthy of admiration than those who always act by calculation. They are not aware that one of the two things deserves praise and the other only congratulation, the latter being common to ordinary men 10.2.7.  whereas what is praiseworthy belongs alone to men of sound judgement and mental ability, whom we should consider to be the most divine and most beloved by the gods. 10.2.8.  To me it seems that the character and principles of Scipio much resembled those of Lycurgus, the Lacedaemonian legislator. 10.2.9.  For neither must we suppose that Lycurgus drew up the constitution of Sparta under the influence of superstition and solely prompted by the Pythia, nor that Scipio won such an empire ')" onMouseOut="nd();"for his country by following the suggestion of dreams and omens. 10.2.10.  But since both of them saw that most men neither readily accept anything unfamiliar to them, nor venture on great risks without the hope of divine help, Lycurgus made his own scheme more acceptable and more easily believed in by invoking the oracles of the Pythia in support of projects due to himself 10.2.12.  while Scipio similarly made the men under his command more sanguine and more ready to face perilous enterprises by instilling into them the belief that his projects were divinely inspired. 10.2.13.  That everything he did was done with calculation and foresight, and that all his enterprises fell out as he had reckoned, will be clear from what I am about to say. 10.9.2.  Although authors agree that he made these calculations, yet when they come to the accomplishment of his plan, they attribute for some unknown reason the success not to the man and his foresight, but to the gods and to chance 10.9.3.  and that in spite of all probability and in spite of the testimony of those who lived with him, and of the fact that Scipio himself in his letter to Philip explained clearly that it was after making the calculations which I have just recited that he undertook all his operations in Spain and particularly the siege of New Carthage. 15.33.10.  For terrible is the cruelty of the Egyptians when their anger is aroused. 18.28.4.  it will prove useful and beneficial to inquire into the difference, and into the reason why on the battle-field the Romans have always had the upper hand and carried off the palm 18.28.5.  so that we may not, like foolish men, talk simply of chance and felicitate the victors without giving any reason for it, but may, knowing the true causes of their success, give them a reasoned tribute of praise and admiration.


Subjects of this text:

subject book bibliographic info
activities Gruen, Rethinking the Other in Antiquity (2011) 120
alexandria/alexandrians Gruen, Ethnicity in the Ancient World - Did it matter (2020) 63
alps Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 86
aristotle Gruen, Ethnicity in the Ancient World - Did it matter (2020) 63; Gruen, Rethinking the Other in Antiquity (2011) 120
barbarians/barbarity, brutal and cruel behavior ascribed to Gruen, Ethnicity in the Ancient World - Did it matter (2020) 63
barbarians/barbarity, praise accorded to Gruen, Ethnicity in the Ancient World - Did it matter (2020) 63
carthage/carthaginians Gruen, Ethnicity in the Ancient World - Did it matter (2020) 63
carthaginians Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 86
constitution, carthaginian Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 129
constitution, roman Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 129
cornelius scipio africanus, p. Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 86
cynoscephalae, battle of Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 86, 129
egypt Gruen, Ethnicity in the Ancient World - Did it matter (2020) 63
egyptians Gruen, Ethnicity in the Ancient World - Did it matter (2020) 63
fortune Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 86
genos/gene/gens/genus, of the alexandrians Gruen, Ethnicity in the Ancient World - Did it matter (2020) 63
governance, carthaginian system of' Gruen, Rethinking the Other in Antiquity (2011) 120
greece Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 129
greeks Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 86, 129
hannibal Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 86
innate capacity as determining ethnicity, rarely suggested by polybius Gruen, Ethnicity in the Ancient World - Did it matter (2020) 63
mercenaries Gruen, Ethnicity in the Ancient World - Did it matter (2020) 63
mochus of sidon Gruen, Rethinking the Other in Antiquity (2011) 120
new carthage Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 86
philip v Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 86, 129
politeia Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 129
polybius Gruen, Ethnicity in the Ancient World - Did it matter (2020) 63; Gruen, Rethinking the Other in Antiquity (2011) 120
posidonius Gruen, Rethinking the Other in Antiquity (2011) 120
ptolemy iv Gruen, Ethnicity in the Ancient World - Did it matter (2020) 63
punic wars Gruen, Ethnicity in the Ancient World - Did it matter (2020) 63
quinctius flamininus, t. Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 129
roman military system Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 129
romans Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 86, 129
rome, world expansion Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 86
rome/romans, and carthage Gruen, Ethnicity in the Ancient World - Did it matter (2020) 63
rome Miltsios, Leadership and Leaders in Polybius (2023) 129
strabo Gruen, Rethinking the Other in Antiquity (2011) 120
thucydides, son of melesias, causes, causality Rengakos and Tsakmakis, Brill's Companion to Thucydides (2006) 190
thucydides, son of melesias, digressions Rengakos and Tsakmakis, Brill's Companion to Thucydides (2006) 190
zeno Gruen, Rethinking the Other in Antiquity (2011) 120