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Tiresias: The Ancient Mediterranean Religions Source Database



2303
Cicero, De Oratore, 1.84-1.89


Charmadas vero multo uberius eisdem de rebus loquebatur, non quo aperiret sententiam suam; hic enim mos erat patrius Academiae adversari semper omnibus in disputando; sed cum maxime tamen hoc significabat, eos, qui rhetores nominarentur et qui dicendi praecepta traderent, nihil plane tenere neque posse quemquam facultatem adsequi dicendi, nisi qui philosophorum inventa didicisset.Charmadas indeed spoke much more diffusely on those topics; not that he delivered his own opinion (for it is the hereditary custom of every one in the Academy to take the part of opponents to all in their disputations), but what he chiefly signified was, that those who were called rhetoricians, and laid down rules for the art of speaking, understood nothing; and that no man could attain any command of eloquence who had not mastered the doctrines of the philosophers. [XIX.]


Disputabant contra diserti homines Athenienses et in re publica causisque versati, in quis erat etiam is, qui nuper Romae fuit, Menedemus, hospes meus; qui cum diceret esse quandam prudentiam, quae versaretur in perspiciendis rationibus constituendarum et regendarum rerum publicarum, excitabatur homo promptus atque omni abundans doctrina et quadam incredibili varietate rerum atque copia: omnis enim partis illius ipsius prudentiae petendas esse a philosophia docebat neque ea, quae statuerentur in re publica de dis immortalibus, de disciplina iuventutis, de iustitia, de patientia, de temperantia, de modo rerum omnium, ceteraque, sine quibus civitates aut esse aut bene moratae esse non possent, usquam in eorum inveniri libellis;“Certain men of eloquence at Athens, versed in public affairs and judicial pleadings, disputed on the other side; among whom was Menedemus, lately my guest at Rome; but when he had observed that there is a sort of wisdom which is employed in inquiring into the methods of settling and managing governments, he, though a ready speaker, was promptly attacked by the other, a man of abundant learning, and of an almost incredible variety and copiousness of argument; who maintained that every portion of such wisdom must be derived from philosophy, and that whatever was established in a state concerning the immortal gods, the discipline of youth, justice, patience, temperance, moderation in everything, and other matters, without which states would either not subsist at all, or be corrupt in morals, was nowhere to be found in the petty treatises of the rhetoricians.


quod si tantam vim rerum maximarum arte sua rhetorici illi doctores complecterentur, quaerebat, cur de prooemiis et de epilogis et de huius modi nugis—sic enim appellabat—referti essent eorum libri, de civitatibus instituendis, de scribendis legibus, de aequitate, de iustitia, de fide, de frangendis cupiditatibus, de conformandis hominum moribus littera nulla in eorum libris inveniretur.For if those teachers of rhetoric included in their art such a multitude of the most important subjects, why, he asked, were their books crammed with rules about proems and perorations, and such trifles (for so he called them), while about the modelling of states, the composition of laws, about equity, justice, integrity, about mastering the appetites, and forming the morals of mankind, not one single syllable was to be found in their pages?


Ipsa vero praecepta sic inludere solebat, ut ostenderet non modo eos expertis esse illius prudentiae, quam sibi asciscerent, sed ne hanc quidem ipsam dicendi rationem ac viam nosse: caput enim esse arbitrabatur oratoris, ut et ipse eis, apud quos ageret, talis, qualem se esse optaret, videretur; id fieri vitae dignitate, de qua nihil rhetorici isti doctores in praeceptis suis reliquissent; et uti ei qui audirent sic adficerentur animis, ut eos adfici vellet orator; quod item fieri nullo modo posse, nisi cognosset is, qui diceret, quot modis hominum mentes et quibus et quo genere orationis in quamque partem moverentur; haec autem esse penitus in media philosophia retrusa atque abdita, quae isti rhetores ne primoribus quidem labris attigissent.Their precepts he ridiculed in such a manner, as to show that the teachers were not only destitute of the knowledge which they arrogated to themselves, but that they did not even know the proper art and method of speaking; for he thought that the principal business of an orator was, that he might appear to those to whom he spoke to be such as he would wish to appear (that this was to be attained by a life of good reputation, on which those teachers of rhetoric had laid down nothing in their precepts); and that the minds of the audience should be affected in such a manner as the orator would have them to be affected, an object, also, which could by no means be attained, unless the speaker understood by what methods, by what arguments, and by what sort of language the minds of men are moved in any particular direction; but that these matters were involved and concealed in the profoundest doctrines of philosophy, which these rhetoricians had not touched even with the extremity of their lips.


Ea Menedemus exemplis magis quam argumentis conabatur refellere; memoriter enim multa ex orationibus Demostheni praeclare scripta pronuntians docebat illum in animis vel iudicum vel populi in omnem partem dicendo permovendis non fuisse ignarum, quibus ea rebus consequeretur, quae negaret ille sine philosophia quemquam nosse posse.These assertions Menedemus endeavoured to refute, but rather by authorities than by arguments; for, repeating from memory many noble passage? from the orations of Demosthenes, he showed that that orator, while he swayed the minds of judges or of the people by his eloquence, was not ignorant by what means he attained his end, which Charmadas denied that any one could know without philosophy. [XX.]


Huic respondebat non se negare Demosthenem summam prudentiam summamque vim habuisse dicendi, sed sive ille hoc ingenio potuisset sive, id quod constaret, Platonis studiosus audiendi fuisset, non quid ille potuisset, sed quid isti docerent esse quaerendum.“To this Charmadas replied, that he did not deny that Demosthenes was possessed of consummate ability and the utmost energy of eloquence; but whether he had these powers from natural genius, or because he was, as was acknowledged, a diligent hearer of Plato, it was not what Demosthenes could do, but what the rhetoricians taught, that was the subject of inquiry.


Intertexts (texts cited often on the same page as the searched text):

2 results
1. Cicero, De Oratore, 1.46-1.47, 1.85-1.89, 1.93, 1.224, 3.59-3.61 (2nd cent. BCE - 1st cent. BCE)

1.46. multi erant praeterea clari in philosophia et nobiles, a quibus omnibus una paene voce repelli oratorem a gubernaculis civitatum, excludi ab omni doctrina rerumque maiorum scientia ac tantum in iudicia et contiunculas tamquam in aliquod pistrinum detrudi et compingi videbam; 1.47. sed ego neque illis adsentiebar neque harum disputationum inventori et principi longe omnium in dicendo gravissimo et eloquentissimo, Platoni, cuius tum Athenis cum Charmada diligentius legi Gorgiam; quo in libro in hoc maxime admirabar Platonem, quod mihi in oratoribus inridendis ipse esse orator summus videbatur. Verbi enim controversia iam diu torquet Graeculos homines contentionis cupidiores quam veritatis. 1.85. Disputabant contra diserti homines Athenienses et in re publica causisque versati, in quis erat etiam is, qui nuper Romae fuit, Menedemus, hospes meus; qui cum diceret esse quandam prudentiam, quae versaretur in perspiciendis rationibus constituendarum et regendarum rerum publicarum, excitabatur homo promptus atque omni abundans doctrina et quadam incredibili varietate rerum atque copia: omnis enim partis illius ipsius prudentiae petendas esse a philosophia docebat neque ea, quae statuerentur in re publica de dis immortalibus, de disciplina iuventutis, de iustitia, de patientia, de temperantia, de modo rerum omnium, ceteraque, sine quibus civitates aut esse aut bene moratae esse non possent, usquam in eorum inveniri libellis; 1.86. quod si tantam vim rerum maximarum arte sua rhetorici illi doctores complecterentur, quaerebat, cur de prooemiis et de epilogis et de huius modi nugis—sic enim appellabat—referti essent eorum libri, de civitatibus instituendis, de scribendis legibus, de aequitate, de iustitia, de fide, de frangendis cupiditatibus, de conformandis hominum moribus littera nulla in eorum libris inveniretur. 1.87. Ipsa vero praecepta sic inludere solebat, ut ostenderet non modo eos expertis esse illius prudentiae, quam sibi asciscerent, sed ne hanc quidem ipsam dicendi rationem ac viam nosse: caput enim esse arbitrabatur oratoris, ut et ipse eis, apud quos ageret, talis, qualem se esse optaret, videretur; id fieri vitae dignitate, de qua nihil rhetorici isti doctores in praeceptis suis reliquissent; et uti ei qui audirent sic adficerentur animis, ut eos adfici vellet orator; quod item fieri nullo modo posse, nisi cognosset is, qui diceret, quot modis hominum mentes et quibus et quo genere orationis in quamque partem moverentur; haec autem esse penitus in media philosophia retrusa atque abdita, quae isti rhetores ne primoribus quidem labris attigissent. 1.88. Ea Menedemus exemplis magis quam argumentis conabatur refellere; memoriter enim multa ex orationibus Demostheni praeclare scripta pronuntians docebat illum in animis vel iudicum vel populi in omnem partem dicendo permovendis non fuisse ignarum, quibus ea rebus consequeretur, quae negaret ille sine philosophia quemquam nosse posse. 1.89. Huic respondebat non se negare Demosthenem summam prudentiam summamque vim habuisse dicendi, sed sive ille hoc ingenio potuisset sive, id quod constaret, Platonis studiosus audiendi fuisset, non quid ille potuisset, sed quid isti docerent esse quaerendum. 1.93. Quid multa? Sic mihi tum persuadere videbatur neque artificium ullum esse dicendi neque quemquam posse, nisi qui illa, quae a doctissimis hominibus in philosophia dicerentur, cognosset, aut callide aut copiose dicere; in quibus Charmadas solebat ingenium tuum, Crasse, vehementer admirari: me sibi perfacilem in audiendo, te perpugnacem in disputando esse visum. 1.224. philosophorum autem libros reservet sibi ad huiusce modi Tusculani requiem atque otium, ne, si quando ei dicendum erit de iustitia et fide, mutuetur a Platone; qui, cum haec exprimenda verbis arbitraretur, novam quandam finxit in libris civitatem; usque eo illa, quae dicenda de iustitia putabat, a vitae consuetudine et a civitatum moribus abhorrebant. 3.59. Sed quod erant quidam eique multi, qui aut in re publica propter ancipitem, quae non potest esse seiuncta, faciendi dicendique sapientiam florerent, ut Themistocles, ut Pericles, ut Theramenes, aut, qui minus ipsi in re publica versarentur, sed huius tamen eiusdem sapientiae doctores essent, ut Gorgias, Thrasymachus, Isocrates, inventi sunt, qui, cum ipsi doctrina et ingeniis abundarent, a re autem civili et a negotiis animi quodam iudicio abhorrerent, hanc dicendi exercitationem exagitarent atque contemnerent; 3.60. quorum princeps Socrates fuit, is qui omnium eruditorum testimonio totiusque iudicio Graeciae cum prudentia et acumine et venustate et subtilitate tum vero eloquentia, varietate, copia, quam se cumque in partem dedisset omnium fuit facile princeps, eis que, qui haec, quae nunc nos quaerimus, tractarent, agerent, docerent, cum nomine appellarentur uno, quod omnis rerum optimarum cognitio atque in eis exercitatio philosophia nominaretur, hoc commune nomen eripuit sapienterque sentiendi et ornate dicendi scientiam re cohaerentis disputationibus suis separavit; cuius ingenium variosque sermones immortalitati scriptis suis Plato tradidit, cum ipse litteram Socrates nullam reliquisset. 3.61. Hinc discidium illud exstitit quasi linguae atque cordis, absurdum sane et inutile et reprehendendum, ut alii nos sapere, alii dicere docerent. Nam cum essent plures orti fere a Socrate, quod ex illius variis et diversis et in omnem partem diffusis disputationibus alius aliud apprehenderat, proseminatae sunt quasi familiae dissentientes inter se et multum disiunctae et dispares, cum tamen omnes se philosophi Socraticos et dici vellent et esse arbitrarentur.
2. Cicero, Republic, 2.21, 6.3 (2nd cent. BCE - 1st cent. BCE)

2.21. Videtisne igitur unius viri consilio non solum ortum novum populum neque ut in cunabulis vagientem relictum, sed adultum iam et paene puberem? Tum Laelius: Nos vero videmus, et te quidem ingressum ratione ad disputandum nova, quae nusquam est in Graecorum libris. Nam princeps ille, quo nemo in scribendo praestantior fuit, aream sibi sumsit, in qua civitatem extrueret arbitratu suo, praeclaram ille quidem fortasse, sed a vita hominum abhorrentem et moribus 6.3. Eulog. somn. Scip. 401Or. qui rogo impositus revixisset multaque de inferis secreta narrasset haec, quae de animae immortalitate dicerentur caeloque, non somniantium philosophorum esse commenta nec fabulas incredibiles, quas Epicurei derident, sed prudentium coniecturas.


Subjects of this text:

subject book bibliographic info
charmadas Atkins, The Cambridge Companion to Cicero's Philosophy (2021) 38
crassus (character in de oratore) Atkins, The Cambridge Companion to Cicero's Philosophy (2021) 38
de legibus Gilbert, Graver and McConnell, Power and Persuasion in Cicero's Philosophy (2023) 40
de oratore Gilbert, Graver and McConnell, Power and Persuasion in Cicero's Philosophy (2023) 40
de re publica Gilbert, Graver and McConnell, Power and Persuasion in Cicero's Philosophy (2023) 40
dialogue form, in cicero Gilbert, Graver and McConnell, Power and Persuasion in Cicero's Philosophy (2023) 40
dream of scipio Gilbert, Graver and McConnell, Power and Persuasion in Cicero's Philosophy (2023) 40
eloquence Atkins, The Cambridge Companion to Cicero's Philosophy (2021) 38
hermagoras of temnos Gilbert, Graver and McConnell, Power and Persuasion in Cicero's Philosophy (2023) 40
physics Atkins, The Cambridge Companion to Cicero's Philosophy (2021) 38
plato, as model for cicero Gilbert, Graver and McConnell, Power and Persuasion in Cicero's Philosophy (2023) 40
plato, dialogue form in Gilbert, Graver and McConnell, Power and Persuasion in Cicero's Philosophy (2023) 40
plato Atkins, The Cambridge Companion to Cicero's Philosophy (2021) 38
political thought, rhetoric in Gilbert, Graver and McConnell, Power and Persuasion in Cicero's Philosophy (2023) 40
rhetoric, theory of Gilbert, Graver and McConnell, Power and Persuasion in Cicero's Philosophy (2023) 40
rhetoric Atkins, The Cambridge Companion to Cicero's Philosophy (2021) 38
socrates Atkins, The Cambridge Companion to Cicero's Philosophy (2021) 38
soul, immortality of' Gilbert, Graver and McConnell, Power and Persuasion in Cicero's Philosophy (2023) 40